having some things to answer for. Just that God, even when I was doubting him the most, was faithful.). Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. Cultural/societal/political issues are at play in all of life. [1]. We certainly understand the issue as much as anybody. Thanks for sharing your story with us about your step-sons alcoholism and its impact on your family. It is my prayer that others whove been hurt find assurance in Gods peace. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. Tax evasion is a crime. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Your comment was a nice surprise, Claire. Okrapod, I thought, worked in radiology or something along those lines. Seek help! Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. Barbs and sarcasm are a coping mechanism Ive developed from everything Ive been through. The alcoholic never thinks about anyone other then themselves. Hitting bottom helps. I doubt I will. I am even more concerned about her lack of education and information about addiction, including co-addiction (i.e. That so easily could have been all she wrote. Leaders can fail, like David, dont you know? Robert Charles Sproulcalled by his parents R. C. Sproul IIIwas born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on February 13, 1939, the second child of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann Sproul. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. I think that is all what she was getting at, her basic point. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. That is a very condescending response, Velour. @ Julie Anne: I am so sorry that her parents were killed. Denise Sproul passes away from leukemia. They were fine with either term but actually preferred alky. So in deference to their preferences its what Ive used ever since then. But the life of our loved ones is at stake. I believe God gave me a second chance at life, and I am so grateful! The Sprouls have eleven grandchildren, one granddaughter deceased, and seven great-grandchildren. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. . As such, certain biblically qualified believers are chose from among the body of Christ to perform certain biblical ministries such as elder and deaconpositions that are selected and maintained by stringent biblical qualifications. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! Perhaps youve never witnessed Matthew 18 church discipline carried out in a loving biblical manner. Lisa clearly doesnt understand the scope of Drug Court, the cases they can legally accept (felony indictments are an immediate and mandatory disqualification), but this isnt surprising. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. Sproul Jr.s spiritual abuse of former church members and entire families. People need to wake up. A very good article by a Christian woman named Heather who is also a recovering alcoholic. Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to NEVER drink and drive. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: 1. (If someone already said this, apologies. That was the time between his arrest in November 2016 and his plea deal. Jeff I hear you. Well, according to their own theology, hes not. I said, Sproul Jr. has suffered tragedies, yes. I am so glad that Anne Lamott got help thats wonderful! I just dont know any. According to Spinderella, the church governing body was aware of this issuefor many years. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Thank God it was always so late, thus basically no traffic. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. Im the former member of RC Jrs church who contacted Dee. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. He was previously married to Vesta Ann. That is Gods department. In this day and age of the internet, if someone has a problem (like alcoholism or a psychological issue) they could Google about it. The objective and end goal must always be repentance unto restoration., I would agree the church in the dark ages had a very bad reputation when it came to church discipline, Spanish Inquisition and all that. I think its the same person. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida I hope they do. Drunk driving wasnt just a one time incident, and drunk driving with kids in the car didnt happen just the once either. At least, from the description. I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). I stand corrected. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. May his tribe increase until we take vigorous steps to drastically change our whole culture in this matter. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. Its about loving the wayward soul back to being restored. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. @ okrapod: I have noticed that you get stuck in a rut and keep going over the same thing over and over again, even though you know the issues have already been covered and logically and responsibly discussed. It was pouring rain outside, but I gave the drink back to him and told him to take me home. He went to the hospital the next day, he did not want to go that evening but finally, my mother insisted. Answer to God. Dee, Deb, totally off topic but can you investigate something for us? And One Hand Washes the Other. This is fallacious. an invitation to share his/her story. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. There is so much more to Scripture than just Matthew 18:15-17 when it comes to dealing with people with problems. wrote: I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. What exactly is the definition of an alcoholic? They have absolutely NO idea how phony it sounds to someone outside the Amen Chorus. Please include what quote you are talking about. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. There are other problems with such groups, as well. There are people who are alcoholics and yes, the first drink (beer, etc.) Lea wrote: Bridget wrote: Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. When I was 12yo I began babysitting for a family who regularly attended my church. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. Maybe Barbara would support all that stuff is it fair to base your arguments on silence? You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). . I have read it several times, actually. God gave me a second chance, and Im very grateful! I happen to see the public health aspects of alcoholism and drug addiction differently than you and Barbara (and Julie Anne) see them. This website has been following RC SproulJr for years and has documented many problems with his ministry. Joining another church across town was never a good enough reason. For instance, Ive no control over my basal insulin requirement; if I take too much Ill be hypoglycaemic (albeit mildly) in the morning, and if I take too little, my glucose levels will be high (albeit much less than they were when I was diagnosed!). Haha. Why would they have to go to a church, all so a pastor could do that same Googling to give them the names and addresses? This guy is a real piece of work. After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? your anger is showing, yes. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. If a person believes that consuming alcohol is wrong and takes a drink, he has transgressed what he believes is glorifying to God and has therefore chosen sin over his love for the Lord. I spoke as softly as I did (from your POV) because others here apparently do not realize that drunkenness is clearly called a sin in the Bible. I think its the same for followers of RC Sproul as well (and John MacArthur). So I was only saying what the Bible says. The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. In time, this changes for the better. I keep telling our kids that living well is the best revenge and so far, I think theyre listening, but my heart grieves over these other young lives that are going to waste, almost as if they are desperate to fulfill the pastors and their parents grim prophecies about what happens to those who leave the straight(jacket) and narrow(minded) way. I am sure that Sproul Sr. paid for that. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. If so, login to add it. Velour, Im very sorry I hurt you. I have already done that. If yes, please consider going to at least six Al-Anon meetings (theyre free) for the family and friends of problem drinkers. we went to seminars and learned a lot about drug and alcohol abuse. However, I would get nervous during youth group meetings where real sinners: drug users, violent criminals, former gang members-were brought to share their testimonies. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . I no longer read Barbaras blog for that reason either. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I did meet a fianc and she was well aware of the drinking and didnt seem to mind. I needed that sort of help. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. My FIL quit drinking, stayed sober 30 years. 2. Wow, the deception is strong! Rcjr is a gentle spirited man who loves his family and grieves over his sin. Ive been a ligonier for years . Aha. But then there is whats known as the functional drunk or the functional alcoholic. Functional drunks tend to be over-confident of themselves and, therefore, may become reckless behind the wheel and take dangerous risks. Here it is again: There are some here who advocate kicking addicts/alcoholics out of the church. Your post seems not to understand this, but if I have misinterpreted you, please correct me. I have forgiven that pastor in my heart and now have sympathy for the hurts that helped form his character. He sounds like he has inflicted terrible damage on many peoples lives, and for that I am sorry. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, and thats sort of in the back of my mind now when I think about things like alcohol and other distracting and numbing tools. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? And yes, the drunk chose to drive. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help.. Its hard to play the empathy card with this clown. He was bored. We are obliged to do the right thing in intervening for OUR sakes as well as theirs: because we are human persons too and our day may come when we are the overwhelmed and in need of the mercy of others. I had to go things alone, with the depression and the death of a family member. However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. I erred in previously responding with, As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. Spinderella Sproul has reported on this but the specifics on RC Jrs probation terms seemingly been difficult to come up with. And even if they want it sometimes its too difficult. It matters not if the problem is a sickness or a moral failure. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? You both have different and appropriate responses, so why you are putting her down is beyond me. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? I was touched by Friends story earlier about how their church and clergy loved a woman alcoholic member who wasnt clean and sober, but was a vital, loving member of their community. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. Sproul, theologian, pastor, and founder of Ligonier Ministries, died on December 14, 2017, at the age of 78, after being hospitalized due to complications R.C. She is a white, not hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County. Sr didnt dissuade them he encouraged it. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. Mifflintown, PA 17059. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? That sounds very Mark Driscoll-ian. Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. Im glad you are no longer around them and their hateful views. In very pious terms of course. from her when she kept on and on telling us that we were wrong to take the view we took about codependency. Christiane, this works both ways. This blog is filled with stories of just the opposite. Will he receive it? Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. That will certainly be my prayer for him, his family, former church members that he has harmed, and present church members that he is harming. The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. As our ministry grew we ended up handling adult issues also. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.. You dont know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you are physicians who specialize in this. Velour wrote: Thank you, Christiane, for your wise words. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. BFM2000 is not, to my knowledge, PENAL, rather just substitutionary. Velour said: Daisy, The response speaks for itself. But I was serious and stood my ground, even though back then I was usually quite shy around older guys. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. (Sometimes some of the treatment programs can create another set of problems in a person.). Today, Stephen Nichols and Mrs. Vesta Sproul talk about the vision behind RBC 10 years after its founding. Intervention: the RIGHT kind by STRONG people who really care about him is needed before a tragedy unfolds. Anyway. I have read it several times, actually. And the steam burns from the radiator explosion on the picture they look like first-degree burns. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. If a church has an alky support group/ministry theyd be the exception, and only in that case would I say a church is qualified to step in and help. When youre a non-drinker at social functions, the drinkers noticed. However, this email led me to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproulwebsite. We went over this last night. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. @ okrapod: I believe that the church, as church, needs to stay out of it. An Infographic on Tullian Tchividjians Pursuit of Women and a Public/Publication Platform, GRACE Releases Statement Regarding Tullian Tchividjian Supports Victims, Challenges Churches with ConstructiveChanges, 1. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? In cases like this, I cant see abandoning the person but the WORST thing to do would be to stand by them and enable their alcoholism. It didnt help me with depression or anxiety (thats the truth), and I did try attending a few different churches at low points in my life. Answer: not that much so dial it back. One little drink wont hurt is tragically wrong. im very sorry you had to go through that. I drove to the hospital right after shutting off the gas and water at our house. I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. First of all, it can be pretty hard to define just what gossip is. Sproul, Sr.). However, that is how I see that particular passage: social danger to others, or more than looks and testimony. ALL LIES. Why not? I sustained serious injuries as well a skull fracture, broken bones, and quite a few cuts (I am blessed that I didnt lose my eyesight because I had lacerations above both eyes). But he doesnt always choose to do what we want, no matter how fervent our prayers may be. is pretty controlling. [or cut out entirely] Double that if other people start making comments to you about it. Abuse is a different issue. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldn't be necessary. claimed that Al-Anon and sponsors tell people to separate from alcoholic spouses. Today that little churchis her home church. The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. But interventions and treatment does work. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Some denominations have a structure under which an alcoholic pastor is removed and required to enter a program to address medical, psychological, and spiritual issues. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. My mother was codependent in part because her father used to abuser her and her mother, and she raised me to have codependent behaviors, which left me vulnerable to being exploited or abused by other people. That Frankenstein line of forehead stitches did it heal up? I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. You have to live into a very small world not to know that. Ugh. @ refugee: Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. The course was on the person and work of Christ. He didnt just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. We agree on your closing statement, Velour. Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. So, I got to thinking, how does sitting in a church help someone conquer alcoholism? was immature. Hospitalization with detox and follow-up care by his physician I quoted this post because it has both your posts in it. Anyone who bothers to check out the evidence, and the evidence is overwhelming, will be convinced thats exactly what theyve done his entire life. @ Velour: @ Max: Then they really start talking. 5, it is the opportunity Ive been looking for, as pastors dont really teach and preach about this much maybe that is part of the problem. I am not trying to take you to task, because you are obviously passionately defending a carefully considered stance, but your mode of communication is obscuring your message. (Expire a life, or innocence or a reputation, or a familys resources, etc.) Velour wrote: And we explain why we think that word is an inappropriate and unhelpful when talking about domestic abuse. Im wondering if a 2018 resolution will be about depravity or the elect???? People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. I did not see her post in that manner. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking . Two or three witnesses principle. From drinking, to how the non-Xtian men I know have treated women, to spending moneyI have not seen the kind of demonic pandemonium that certain Evangelicals would have us believe results when non-Xtians do anything. With follow-up. In my professional life I both treat and work integratively healing disease with nutritional therapies- including those who have undergone transplants due to chronic substance abuse. (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!) Crickets. Sproul Jr. can be exposed. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. It is Barbaras quote to H.U.G. Yes, alcoholics need consequences to their actions to help them hit bottom. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. So Velour, you have now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her what she needs to do. I get that church is not just a building, its people. I dont drink alcohol. I dont even think the sin leveler types would go with choices 1 or 3. Let me ask you a question, instead, Daisy. This often does not happen because money is not available. Do you realise how offensive that is? obituary "R.C. 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